Feedback

Show Notes

Summary

Feedback is either a growth engine or a yearly ambush. In this conversation, Mathias Meyer and Sara Hicks break down why most feedback fails, why performance review season still feels like spelunking, and what it actually takes to make feedback useful, timely, and trust-building.

Drawing from a fresh leadership offsite and years of hard-won experience, Mathias and Sara unpack the moments that make feedback feel scary, awkward, or downright unhelpful. They also share the small shifts that turn it into something that helps people improve instead of shutting them down.

You'll discover why feedback needs to be regular, specific, and tied to expectations long before a tough conversation ever happens. Mathias and Sara explore how blind spots show up in meetings, why vague praise like "you're doing great" is useless, and how a simple feedback log can save you from scrambling months later.

They also break down how power dynamics, cultural differences, and fear of reaction make feedback especially difficult for founders, managers, and senior leaders. If you lead a team, coach others, or want to ask for better feedback yourself, this episode gives you concrete language and a better process to use.

This is essential listening if you want feedback to become a mirror, not a threat. Whether you're the one giving it or the one asking for it, you'll walk away with a clearer, calmer way to make feedback actually work.

Keywords

feedback culture, performance reviews, leadership communication, employee feedback, manager coaching, feedback log, workplace trust, difficult conversations, founder leadership, team performance

Takeaways

• Feedback needs to be regular, not annual — saving it for review season turns into "spelunking" through months-old memories.

• Keep a feedback log — a simple running record per person prevents the scramble and gives real material for bigger conversations.

• Set expectations before you ever need to give feedback — most feedback problems trace back to unclear expectations.

• Vague praise is useless — feedback has to be specific and tied to actual moments and behaviors, not personality.

• Feedback should target behavior and impact, not character — frame it as "when you did X, it had Y effect."

• Build a "feedback muscle" through practice — scripting out what you want to say is normal and helpful, especially early on.

• Power dynamics make feedback harder in both directions — employees fear giving feedback up, leaders often don't get honest input from below.

• Generic requests like "feedback welcome" or start/stop/continue rarely work — specific, pointed questions yield much more useful answers.

• A good framing opener lowers defenses — something like "as your business partner, within the limits of my perception, I offer you the following feedback."

• Don't wait for a crisis to start the feedback habit — regular, low-stakes feedback builds the trust that makes hard conversations survivable.

Chapters

02:58 The Culture of Feedback

05:42 Feedback as a Catalyst for Growth

08:16 Mindset and Approach to Feedback

10:43 The Importance of Regular Feedback

13:19 Setting Clear Expectations

16:01 Navigating Power Dynamics in Feedback

18:49 The Challenges of Giving and Receiving Feedback

21:11 Creating a Feedback-Friendly Environment

23:46 Specificity and Actionability in Feedback

26:09 The Role of Company Values in Feedback

28:47 Preparing for Tough Feedback Conversations

36:50 Mastering the Art of Feedback

45:02 The Quest for Quality Feedback

52:35 Crafting Effective Feedback Requests

57:10 Balancing Feedback with Appreciation

57:30 Lighthearted Conversations and Personal Insights

Transcript

Mathias Meyer (00:00) Feedback tends to fall into two categories, for better or worse, and mostly for worse. Either it's not useful or specific, or it comes way too late, or much worse. Not at all. In my very first job, many moons ago, I got feedback from my then manager at the end of each year, a practice still so very common in the much-dreaded performance review season.

Only months after something actually happened did I learn that it hurt my chances of reaching my own goals for the year. I wasn't exactly angling for a promotion, but did long for a salary bump. It was a disappointment to find out only when I couldn't actually fix anything and had to wait another year. Again, this is still rather common practice today. The disappointment is still very real.

Years later, I was in the same position as my then manager, and I struggled. Nay, failed. I failed the people working for me. I just didn't have any feedback when asked. I was still early in my management career, but that's not an excuse. Someone reporting to me asked me for feedback. I was caught I was caught off guard and mumbled something about thinking about it and coming back to him later. Not to exaggerate.

But in hindsight, this was a formative experience for me. That and the few times I witnessed where someone on my leadership team asked for feedback from the group with the simple phrase, feedback welcome. And then they later complained to me that they didn't get any and that everyone else seemed to ignore them. Feedback isn't just a medium to help people be their best selves.

It's a glue that holds entire teams together. All the talk about wanting trust and transparency is meaningless when feedback isn't flowing openly. Why is it so difficult then? Why does it come so infrequently, or not at all? Giving good feedback takes time. Accepting and incorporating feedback requires to dial down one's ego.

Accepting that the feedback you gave is only one perspective of many, and that you also don't know everything takes humility. So to give and receive good feedback, the work starts with ourselves, as it so often does in leadership. It takes time and patience, which is also why we've taken a bit more time today to dive into feedback.

Join Sara and I to find out what makes for good feedback, what it helps us do, and where you can start improving yours.

Mathias Meyer (03:06) So, in our book, we have a chapter called The Culture of Feedback. And the illustration for that chapter is a group of marmots squawking back and forth at each other. And we felt this is pretty apt illustration for the types of feedback conversations we've had throughout our careers, people including ourselves, talking past and over each other.

Mathias Meyer (03:32) And also we just really wanted to have an illustration featuring marmots in our book It is probably one of the cutest if you see this on video. This is what it looks like. It is adorable So we thought feedback

Mathias Meyer (03:48) would be a good podcast episode and so in this episode we'll talk about why feedback is important and also why it's so challenging and I personally am coming into this from

just having facilitated an offsite where I asked a leadership team to provide each other with feedback for maybe the first time and also in a very open forum. There are five of and I gave them an exercise sheet as one does and then they had to read the feedback to each other out loud and it was...

intense for many and it brought me back maybe to one of my earlier feedback conversations or maybe the earliest ones in my career in management that were They were just scary in some ways. so yeah, this is a very fresh topic for me and I'm curious, Sara, what comes to mind for you

Mathias Meyer (04:45) when you think about feedback?

Sara Hicks (04:46) Okay, well first, the Marmots are so cute. I think it is, you know, I like to say my favorites, but I think it is one of, if not my favorite, illustration in the whole book, the Marmots squawking

Mathias Meyer (04:59) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (05:00) at each other. And as I've shared with you, Mathias, it's often how every feedback conversation I experienced throughout my career

So yeah, what comes to mind? What do I think about when I think about feedback? I mean, it's so mixed because I sort of get sweaty palms and it kind of just brings back all sorts of unsatisfying memories, but it's ultimately like what I think about feedback. I think about learning and I think about improvement

Mathias Meyer (05:26) Hmm

Sara Hicks (05:27) and not judgment. Like it's really about learning and improvement and

I think as I've grown in my own manager skills and leader skills, in my coaching skills, helping someone to see what they can't see themselves.

Mathias Meyer (05:42) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Sara Hicks (05:44) And that's a really important responsibility. Like I think feedback is a responsibility. And often, just like you were saying, I have so many clients and teams that just don't have a practice of regular feedback. And I don't know why. And even, Mathias, you've pointed out there are a lot of business books in the world, but not a lot that are really honest about feedback.

for

some reason.

Mathias Meyer (06:12) Yeah, very true. Yeah, I've done some research lately on this topic, not just for this, this episode, but also for a different forum. yeah, there's not really a lot you can find on what good feedback looks like. And takes me back to the earliest days of my work in management.

I think, over time, I, I've come around to feedback, maybe being as a more of a catalyst, you know, and a catalyst of positive change. And I know that, you know, sounds

Sara Hicks (06:41) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (06:43) slightly weird, maybe coming from a German, is it's not necessarily, you know, what we, what we focus on, but it can, excuse my, my business French, it can unlock potential.

Sara Hicks (06:56) Okay.

Mathias Meyer (07:00) In that, you know, it could point out to somebody what they're doing well in some ways to help them understand what they contribute, right? And what the stuff is they need to do more of. And it also helps maybe you as a manager and then the people on the receiving end of feedback to understand what boundaries are, right? And when you've overstepped them.

And that, you know, it doesn't always have to imply anything like negative consequences or something like that. one of the earliest feedbacks I had to give was somebody overstepping behavioral boundaries. And that made it extra scary to give that feedback. But it was also, it was just important. Otherwise that person would have just continued doing what they did. Yeah. Really one of my earliest

Sara Hicks (07:44) Right, right, yeah.

Mathias Meyer (07:48) feedback experiences.

that I don't think back fondly, but it was, you know, it's the first one, especially when you have to give someone tough feedback for the very first time. It's a challenge and it also it sticks with you. And yeah, how about yourself?

Sara Hicks (07:58) That's a tough, yeah. Yeah.

Well, I do, I do just want to point out that my German friend has used the word catalyst and unlock. And we have just a little bit of foreshadowing here is that we do intend to have a podcast episode on buzzwords and business lingo. So just going to

Mathias Meyer (08:29) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (08:30) put a pin in that over there. yeah, I mean, so much of what you said, I feel like we talk a little bit about this in our book, you know,

There's a whole mindset that has to go, I think, with feedback, right? Like, feedback's best

Sara Hicks (08:43) when both the giver and the receiver are approaching it in the right mindset. Like, I'm not a big fan of random drive-by And so many of the feedback I received,

It just felt like I'm being criticized rather than I'm thinking about it like what can I learn here? And that's a

Mathias Meyer (09:05) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (09:07) super important, like if I am able to go into the conversation, I'm able to help the receiver go into the conversation with that learning mindset. it changes so much and that it's really about helping someone to grow. But there's that hard part about it which is your

You're really evaluating behavior or someone's progress. So I don't know if that really... Yeah, someone's performance...

Mathias Meyer (09:30) someone's performance to

throw in another business word.

Sara Hicks (09:36) Yeah,

yeah, and really like, I mean, that's what feedback is. It's helping to close or helping to clarify or put a spotlight on, you know, what the intention is versus where the impact is. don't know, like there's, it's supposed to point out a disconnect, right?

Mathias Meyer (09:55) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (09:57) Anyway, and it's supposed to ultimately support growth and other buzzwords like alignment and it should build trust. know, the challenge with feedback is it has to be regular.

you know, can't be a lecture. It has to be a regular thing.

Mathias Meyer (10:13) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (10:14) I don't know if that answered your question, but it was sort of where my mind went.

Mathias Meyer (10:18) Well, that's, that's all we're after. This is all what this podcast is about, I guess. I mean, you've covered already like one angle of why it's important. Feedbank is a growth vehicle and I'm just, I'm just throwing more business terms out there, but in some ways, you know, it helps us understand our blind spot. As you said, it's a learning opportunity.

It's a, I can learn

Sara Hicks (10:43) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (10:45) something about myself that I would not.

will necessarily see myself because it's always a matter of, you know, everybody brings different perspectives into the mix. And, you you never see yourself, for example, in a meeting be the person who, starts talking as barely as someone else has finished their sentence. To you, it's just an intuitive response, as one example.

and for, everyone else, it's an annoyance, right? But you don't really think about it because you just do it and nobody has told you that that can be a destructive behavior in a meeting.

Sara Hicks (11:21) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (11:23) yeah, we only see part of that particular hole. And especially this, you know, here we get to tough, tough feedback and maybe the learning opportunity and what people call maybe negative feedback generally. it

Mathias Meyer (11:37) you know, helps us ideally, helps us figure out what the behaviors are that are annoying others, that are destructive, damaging, or that, you know, so for odd reasons, just put an immediate stop to meetings, even though that might not have been the intention. People stop talking and then the meeting is over, even though people had maybe more left to say.

Sara Hicks (11:59) Right, Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (12:01) And I recently read or started reading Marshall Goldsmith's book, What Got You Here Won't Get You There.

old classic almost. And he summed this up quite nicely. put a slightly different spin on it. Like he talked about how when you advance in

Sara Hicks (12:12) Okay. you

Mathias Meyer (12:17) senior leadership roles, the highest impact

that we can achieve at work in terms of change isn't about learning new things, learning new skills or improving our experience horizon, just adding to the skills and things that we bring into a role. It is the behaviors, right? It's changing our behaviors.

Sara Hicks (12:39) Hmm.

Mathias Meyer (12:41) But that requires us to gather these perspectives to get that feedback from folks.

and learn how our behaviors, whether it's in meetings or in a podcast episode recording or however else we communicate or behave, how that impacts the people around us. And it does, well, it does require a sense of curiosity and also wanting to make those changes.

Sara Hicks (13:06) yeah, very well said. it's important, it comes down to what you said at the very beginning. It's all about growth, right? It's about growth

Sara Hicks (13:14) and learning and in order to have that, you have to have that curiosity. You have to have that willingness and if you're, if you want to build a culture of growth and learning and understanding, which I can say just about every founder I work with like has some values and principles that they've listed around wanting to have a culture of growth and of learning and of curiosity, feedback is a critical component to that.

Mathias Meyer (13:42) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (13:44) you know, feedback is ultimately a mirror.

Right? Like you said, it's uncovering blind spots. It's someone else, holding up a mirror to show you things that you can't see yourself, that you

Mathias Meyer (13:56) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (13:57) may not be able to see yourself or you're not aware of. that's, know, making that a part of your culture. I a safe process, a regular process.

Mathias Meyer (14:08) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (14:09) Um, really, really important. I often ask, you

Mathias Meyer (14:11) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (14:12) know, my coaching clients, when was the last time, you know, you had a feedback conversation with this individual, this direct report and you know, I get the blank stare, like a feedback conversation. Like, do you have a, you know, are you, do you have a feedback log? Just a simple place where you're

Mathias Meyer (14:29) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (14:30) recording feedback, simple things. And I get the

Mathias Meyer (14:33) Yeah, I wanted to.

Sara Hicks (14:34) blank stare. ahead.

Mathias Meyer (14:36) Feedback log one of the nicest tools to have in your repertoire to prepare for feedback conversation. Not to jump ahead too far, but I mean, it is one of the things where if you keep that for everybody on your team and note down things that have happened, whatever feedback format you use, you have a nice history of feedback. And also it's easier to prepare for, well, whenever the next feedback conversation happens, right?

Sara Hicks (15:05) Right.

Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (15:09) I mean, I have the same with my clients and some of them I lead back to. I mean, they usually evolve around the word performance and somebody not performing super well, or that's how they view it. And they would like to either give that person feedback or have them suffer the consequences, whatever those may be.

Mathias Meyer (15:33) You know, I always like to take them back to the beginning even the stuff that happened before the feedback conversation, ideally, which is about expectations. Right? When does this person know what you expect from them? And by extension, does this person know? Well, what success looks like, right? And what what it might look like when things are going off the rails or in the wrong direction. And that

Sara Hicks (15:44) Great. Yep.

Mathias Meyer (16:01) usually

yields more blank stares. And, you know, we just, I want to add, we say this in this we just way possible, because usually the reasons for this, like why expectations usually aren't clear is it's usually a matter of time or the lack thereof. It's

Sara Hicks (16:18) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (16:20) like, especially when you have a growing organization, I somehow expect people are maybe self learners or they will...

you know, pick up everything as they go along and they will automatically, maybe even intuitively do things in the way that you want them to do things. And, you know, there's probably less than a 50 % chance of that actually working out. And for some reason the people we hire early, it works. But then as we, you know, keep growing, it doesn't.

Sara Hicks (16:39) Great.

Right

Mathias Meyer (16:55) because nobody

accumulates all of that knowledge as quickly as the early employees or they haven't had all of that benefit of the additional context for maybe years of working together.

Sara Hicks (17:08) Right, right, yeah. Great.

Mathias Meyer (17:09) Yeah, that's the biggest one for me, taking that step. And once that step is taken, once that conversation happens, everything already flows a little bit easier. Like everybody knows

what you can give feedback on and what you can get feedback on. And again, people always fear it's a thing about micromanagement if you set expectations in too much detail. But it's really about

Sara Hicks (17:26) Right.

Mathias Meyer (17:37) being clear with each other. And you don't have to dictate everything, but rather make it a conversation. Talk about, these expectations realistic? then

Sara Hicks (17:46) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (17:47) taking it further, kind of support do you need to achieve, to live up to these expectations?

Sara Hicks (17:54) Right,

Mathias Meyer (17:55) But it takes time.

Sara Hicks (17:57) Yeah, I was just thinking that it takes time, right? yeah, it just has me thinking about just how many conversations, feedback conversations don't start with that simple,

we clear on the expectations? Let's talk about what

your understanding is of the expectations for this project or for this role or for this situation. And let's see if there's a gap. Where do you see yourself for these expectations?

Mathias Meyer (18:23) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (18:24) What's your timeline for this? Where do you need help or support? I think that's such a great way to start because it's about grounding and anchoring the conversation around clear expectations.

And you're right, it can easily get into micromanagement, but that's not the point. I think it's about just having a starting point.

Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (18:50) The other problem with feedback that you've already mentioned is that it's only given very rarely. it's a matter of taking the time and there never really being enough time. like I just recently had a conversation with a client where

You know, they have performance season like every every so many months. And it's it's always a scramble. It's always a scramble

Sara Hicks (19:11) Yeah. Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (19:14) trying to look back at. Well, what is what even happened? Like what did this person do? What did they do? Well, where did they not do well? I mean, it's a challenge for the person giving the feedback, but it's also like when you're on the receiving end, there are more challenges for this where.

you might end up being like, well, my promotion kind of hinged on this. Couldn't you have told me this sooner

Sara Hicks (19:35) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (19:39) so I would have had time to correct?

Sara Hicks (19:43) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (19:43) I will be honest, performance review season is a super odd concept to me. Like, it's just...

Sara Hicks (19:50) Yeah,

is the one I see. I mean, it's 100%. It is only given rarely is the number one issue of establishing a meaningful feedback, process or framework in your companies. Like one of the last things I did in my very corporate job,

where I was managing a very large team was the annual performance review cycle and it wasn't the first time. It was once again incredibly painful for everything you're talking about, Mathias Everything. Everyone was like scrambling. You know, I call it spelunking. They were like trying to figure out what happened this year. going back to their calendar, their email, the drive, trying to find out what, what did this person do?

What did I do? I even did my own self-evaluation. And then, you know, there's these mid-year checkups and it's the same thing.

Mathias Meyer (20:43) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (20:44) and of course then, if you're only doing it around performance review, super, super challenging. I experience this myself and I often hear it from my coaching clients that they just don't have enough time. And I'm like, well, you're meeting

Mathias Meyer (20:56) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (20:56) with this person one-on-one.

weekly or every other week,

what if, you know, just an idea, what if you just made 10 minutes of that conversation every single time, just a space for feedback or once a month even.

And

Mathias Meyer (21:11) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (21:13) it important and doing the feedback log so that you actually have a log so that when you get to this mid-year check-in or the end of your performance cycle,

you already have a lot of information and there's no surprises between you and your teammate.

Mathias Meyer (21:32) Yeah, agreed.

It's a feedback log. mean, you know, performance, three seasons seems an inevitable thing to happen and growing your organization for reasons beyond my capacity

Sara Hicks (21:41) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (21:44) to understand. But at least, when it, is the case and you come with something like a feedback log, that particular step is only maybe summarizing what you, what has already been said rather than, having to come up.

and scramble with just trying to look back at half a year or a full year. So I mean,

Sara Hicks (22:02) Yes.

Mathias Meyer (22:04) FeedbackLock, it's a genius little invention. And I also like your idea of making dedicated time in a one-on-one, whether it's, as you said, 10 minutes every time or once a month, you make one of these meetings all about feedback. And then it also goes both ways. And you really quickly,

Sara Hicks (22:20) Yeah. Both ways. Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (22:23) yeah, you really quickly build up

records of feedback and also just the habit, right? doesn't,

Sara Hicks (22:29) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (22:31) there's a clear expectation feedback happens at this meeting. And it's also, if feedback is not flowing, that's a meta conversation to be had of why it isn't flowing. Right? So,

Sara Hicks (22:43) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (22:45) if it just gets pushed back, like, no, I don't have anything this week. I don't have anything this week or next week in the following week. That's another conversation to have.

Sara Hicks (22:55) Right.

So true, so true. been on both sides of that where I've sort of been like, nothing. I've also been, in our notes, I've been guilty of this of not providing specific enough feedback. And to me, that gets back recalibrating on expectations. I've definitely done the, you're doing well, you're doing great, you're doing awesome.

Just not very American, very Californian, not specific enough.

Mathias Meyer (23:24) I've done that too.

Sara Hicks (23:27) Or I've focused too much on the good and not on, and it's not about good or bad. it's important to just like always be improving, always be learning. So it's not a bad thing. It's just a, hey, I thought you could actually be a little bit clearer in this conversation or in this meeting or with this initiative. And here's some ideas of

of

how to prepare differently next time. That's not

Mathias Meyer (23:49) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (23:49) a bad thing. That's just trying to go from 80 % to 90 and just a little bit more clear each time. I think one

Mathias Meyer (23:57) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (23:58) thing that we haven't talked about is the power differential. So much of feedback is complicated by the fact that it's often between a manager and an employee or a boss and an employee,

Mathias Meyer (24:10) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (24:11) a founder.

There's power differentials, there's cultural differences, there's gender differences,

Mathias Meyer (24:19) All true. I was thinking back to maybe also again to founders or folks who have kind of maybe found themselves in, you know, senior leadership positions by virtue of being a founder, right? Or it just, was a gap that needed to be filled. Where they, maybe they used to be one of the, one of the team, right? And the

In a smaller team, smaller company, that power differential is not as obvious or not as present. But as the company grows, as the team grows around them, they they would love feedback, right? And they tell their team, you know, it's the same as telling your team, my door is always open, right? but then...

Sara Hicks (24:59) you

Mathias Meyer (25:01) disregard the fact there's all kinds of risk attached to, giving your boss feedback, whether that risk is actually real or whether it's just a fear you have. mean, the reality is your boss probably could in some way either, you know, block your career advancement in the company or get you fired depending on where you are and how easy that is in the world.

It is very real and it's frustrating to you as a senior leader because you want the feedback, you want to uncover the blind spots, but

Sara Hicks (25:29) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (25:38) it just doesn't happen on its own because as you know, as the higher up you are, even the people who report directly to you, the impact of your response to their feedback might be getting more more severe.

Sara Hicks (25:52) Right,

right.

this is why feedback is challenging. It's especially the tough kind, right? Like, it's hard to...

It's hard to give the feedback. It's also hard to receive the feedback. I often fear what the other person's going to react,

Mathias Meyer (26:09) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (26:10) what their response might be. This is not always easy, and that's part of it. Especially if you haven't set up a process or more regular feedback cycles, these things come out of the blue.

Mathias Meyer (26:27) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (26:28) it makes it more likely that the response might not be well received. It might trigger anger or it might trigger someone to quit. It might trigger someone receive it well. And that's just as important for the person giving the feedback as it is the person receiving the feedback. I often

Mathias Meyer (26:49) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (26:50) say,

You know, don't start with a laundry list of all the things that you want this person to change or fix. Like it has to be very focused in on specific situations. It you know, this isn't the time to just drop everything into, you know, this feedback conversation, like make it very

Mathias Meyer (27:07) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (27:08) specific, right? And we talk about that, about giving, giving good feedback.

in our book for sure.

Mathias Meyer (27:14) Yeah. I think a part, an important part of that is that the first time then when that loop of feedback isn't established, the first time that you start thinking about it is usually when things are already bad. And so your,

Sara Hicks (27:31) Right, right.

Mathias Meyer (27:32) your first feedback conversation is just going to be, I said like it's

Sara Hicks (27:35) It's a crisis. It's a crisis.

Mathias Meyer (27:38) a crisis and that will

you know, even before the meeting, you're gonna be on edge as a person giving the feedback. The person receiving the feedback will either be, well, equally anxious depending on how you prepared them for this meeting, or they will leave completely deflated. Their fight or flight response might instantly be triggered, or they may also just be and rightfully so wondering, where the hell is all of this coming from all of a sudden? Like, it's not a great way to build

the trust that is required for feedback, but also the trust that is generally reinforced by feedback. So this is where it's helpful to start somewhere where, you know, not just focus on the positive feedback, but where you have a trusted feedback loop that leads up to this, you know, where maybe you don't even have to have that particular kind of conversation because you already had plenty of opportunities to correct course along the way.

Sara Hicks (28:39) Right.

Mathias Meyer (28:40) Ciao!

Sara Hicks (28:40) Yeah.

Yeah. I sort of chuckle because

By

the time you need feedback because there's some sort of you're in a crisis, that state, it's almost too late. I mean, it's not, but you come into those conversations and emotions are already intensified and you're nervous and the person receiving it, you bring a lot of that into that conversation and wow, that's a tough conversation to start your feedback.

Mathias Meyer (29:12) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (29:12) process

on and and that's partly why making it a regular process is so, important because you don't want the first time that you have to give tough feedback or really important feedback on a gap that might exist in expectations. That's the first time. It's gonna be challenging and you're gonna go into it with

know, the person receiving it's gonna have, response and reaction to that. You can still prepare for it and you have to, you have to, and that's why, like, it's really on the person who's giving the feedback to go into that conversation prepared as possible.

Mathias Meyer (29:53) Yeah, agreed. To me, this is also

Sara Hicks (29:55) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (29:55) an opportunity if you haven't set expectations to actually not reset them, but to set them in the first place where you can all, you know, you can also as a person having to give that feedback, also have, you know, a tough conversation with yourself. you know, what were the steps that led us here? What did I contribute to those? And

Sara Hicks (30:05) Yeah. Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (30:17) Do I assume responsibility here and do what I should have done in the first place and accordingly just reset the whole conversation and also maybe my mental state, right? Where it's like, I don't need to go into this conversation in a fully destructive mode. I go into this conversation like, messed this up. I didn't set you up for a success. So more business lingo in there.

Sara Hicks (30:29) Yep. Yep. Yep.

Mathias Meyer (30:43) I didn't set you up for success. Well, I wasn't clear on what this should look like on what success looks like. and accordingly, you didn't have an opportunity to meet my standards. And so I would like to have that conversation with you about the standard. And then,

Sara Hicks (30:58) Yep. Yep.

Mathias Meyer (31:01) you know, you can sprinkle some feedback in there that helps the person, but also always under the pretense that this is, coming from a place of unspoken expectations.

Sara Hicks (31:12) Right. Right.

Mathias Meyer (31:12) And what matters is what happens from here and out and the feedback that's shared from here.

Sara Hicks (31:17) Yeah, yeah. I really like that. Just that simple sentence that you just said, like, I messed this up. I don't think I was clear.

and that we were clear on expectations and I take ownership of that and I want to take the time today to review and to reset from here and so that we can be more clear together going forward. mean that's just such a way to instantly I think diffuse that conversation, right? To take responsibility

Mathias Meyer (31:52) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (31:54) and to also approach it from like we're in this together.

Mathias Meyer (31:57) Yeah, this

Sara Hicks (31:58) Yeah. Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (31:59) defenses are lowered instantly. And I mean, not all the time, but it helps to, you know, not have blood pressure rise to unhealthy

Sara Hicks (32:10) Right.

Mathias Meyer (32:10) amounts and to pulse to get pulses going for sure.

Sara Hicks (32:13) Yep.

Yep. What else?

Mathias Meyer (32:18) There's so much that can get in the way of meaningful feedback. You mentioned one thing that I mean, this has been a theme throughout like it's just we, especially when that loop isn't there, where we tend to be afraid of the response, right? That response gives us sweaty

Sara Hicks (32:34) Hmm.

Mathias Meyer (32:36) palms. It forces us maybe do a power pose before the meeting because we're so

afraid of what might happen. And I've also had some cases

Sara Hicks (32:47) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (32:49) where a senior leaders executives didn't want to give feedback to someone who was critical to the team, at least so far, I will, you know, bracket that. And were they might fear that, you know, that person might have shown very destructive behavior is struggling with a growing company.

struggling to collaborate with others, but carries a lot of ingrained knowledge. I'm not sure about you, but I mean, that conversation comes up regularly for me on the engineering side, a very common thing.

Sara Hicks (33:25) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (33:27) An early engineer who's just accumulated a lot of knowledge, who's a center point of people going to that person.

And there's obviously, you you could argue the stakes are very high when giving that person feedback that their behaviors are not acceptable. Like you could fear that that person might be leaving.

Sara Hicks (33:53) Right.

Mathias Meyer (33:53) there's an interesting question in there that I like to bring back to behaviors and what are the values of this organization? Like is this

what this person is doing, what their behaviors and actions they are showing. Do those align, there's another business word, with

Sara Hicks (34:08) Okay.

Mathias Meyer (34:10) the values that you have set or would like to see in your organization? And usually that makes the conversation a lot easier.

most of the time the answer is no, and then...

The question is what's the greater damage to the organization that one person responding badly and eventually leaving the company or 10 other people on the team leaving the company because they are fed up with

Sara Hicks (34:35) Right.

Mathias Meyer (34:36) this one person. That happens way too much, I mean a thing that just keeps us from having that conversation because.

Sara Hicks (34:44) Right.

Mathias Meyer (34:44) Just,

yeah, we don't know how that person might respond. might get really angry at us, which, you I think.

Sara Hicks (34:49) They might check out. might, yeah,

they might, might leave. They might, yeah, we just don't know. And I've definitely, I mean, I've been there, right? Like we both have. I think being able to anchor it back to values, you know, if the company has cultural values or cultural principles that have been published somewhere, being able to go back to

you know, hey, we have these, this value of X and

Mathias Meyer (35:16) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (35:16) to anchor it to that rather than to the individual is super helpful. But yeah, these types of specific conversations are exponentially harder back to if we don't have regular feedback conversations. And so

Mathias Meyer (35:33) Yeah, agreed.

Sara Hicks (35:35) I don't know, like some of the principles which we've already talked about, like making the feedback as specific as possible, not vague. Obviously the feedback has to be timely like that we talk about, as closest to the event, the more useful. So don't have this like laundry list of things that this person did months and months ago. It's more back to.

you know, have this conversation regularly and keep the feedback timely.

I think one thing you also said I'll just touch on is that it's got to be actionable. it can't be about the person's personality, more

Mathias Meyer (36:07) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (36:08) about the behavior, right?

Mathias Meyer (36:10) whatever the impact or consequences of that behavior is.

Sara Hicks (36:13) Right,

this is why it gets back to preparing and having very specific, when you did this or when you said this, it had this consequence, it had this effect. And maybe they aren't even aware about the effect it had or the consequence or the.

Mathias Meyer (36:28) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (36:29) And saying it in that, like when this happened, when you said this or when you articulated it or when you did that or didn't do this, this is what happened with facts as much as possible. Rather than saying, something really general like you should be better at communication. I don't know, these are techniques that we're now.

kind

of stepping into, which I think is really important, like how to be better at giving feedback and also

Mathias Meyer (36:54) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (36:55) getting feedback. You know, there

Mathias Meyer (36:58) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (36:59) are frameworks out there. You and I have talked about a lot of them. Some of them we like, some not so much, but it does get back to being as specific and not vague as possible.

Mathias Meyer (37:11) Yeah. And that does require, what I like to call a well-developed feedback muscle. Also like it's,

Sara Hicks (37:19) Yes.

Mathias Meyer (37:19) know, that stems from a healthy cycle of having given feedback, having received feedback, and maybe even having gotten feedback on the feedback. very meta, but sometimes that is helpful.

Sara Hicks (37:30) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (37:32) brings back one, several memories for me. One is about.

Someone who worked for me wrote a very long document that, you know, that person wanted to share with the team. In my opinion, it was too long. It needed to be shortened. Like, right now, my assumption is always like anything that's longer than two pages, people will not remember anything about that. And that's not, you know, not

Sara Hicks (37:37) Okay. Okay.

Mathias Meyer (37:57) intentional. It's just how we work as humans, how our brains work.

Sara Hicks (37:57) right.

Mathias Meyer (38:01) And so I've wrote up almost like a full page of feedback on this. Just, you know, on, I don't know what, 50 pages of a document, I wrote one page of feedback. And then when we discussed the feedback also, and the feedback that I had given and how it landed, that person said, well, you could have just told me it's too long. It could have just been one sentence. It's too long. People

Sara Hicks (38:05) You. You

Mathias Meyer (38:29) will not remember this.

It needs to be shorter. It needs to be more concise. That would have been the feedback. Maybe cut it down to two pages. That's always a healthy size. But not every, I you know, for me that was a learning experience that stuck. And as, you know, as Germans, are more known for maybe curt approach to feedback. Some brevity,

Sara Hicks (38:34) Yep. Yep. Little brevity, some brevity. Yes.

Mathias Meyer (38:57) exactly.

in

Sara Hicks (38:58) You

Mathias Meyer (38:59) our feedback, maybe more often than not to the detriment of the feedback itself and how it might be received. But not everybody has these skills of feedback. Like for my very earliest feedback conversations, I had to sit down and prepare word for word what I wanted to say,

Sara Hicks (39:04) Yeah. Yeah. yeah, scripted out. Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (39:18) which is helpful either way, but it was just like, I mean, just.

needed to sit down and write this out. that there's early conversations were definitely not that was not good feedback. And those were also crisis mode. But that's what I found It's not a well developed feedback muscle like feedback that I'm seeing

Sara Hicks (39:31) Yeah. Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (39:36) from clients at times that they've received, or that I've also been, you know, part of feedback groups myself is, you know, it talks about great leadership skills, or you know, how is how a person is a great leader.

Sara Hicks (39:49) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (39:50) or how they are a great communicator. And it speaks to what you just said, like that is not useful feedback. But then

Sara Hicks (39:57) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (39:58) again, people don't know to give it in any other way. Sometimes that is because they don't actually interact with this person so much, and they don't actually know, they only have a generic picture. Other times

Sara Hicks (40:02) Yeah. Yep.

Mathias Meyer (40:11) it because they don't know what to focus on, what is useful.

or what is a thing that I could really say that would help this person maybe add another percent from the 80%. It takes time, it takes time and skill and just have this be a learning experience.

Sara Hicks (40:23) Yeah. Takes time.

For preparation. Yeah, I'm a big fan of scripting out. I still to this day often script out,

what I want to say. I've definitely been in conversations and feedback conversations that have been a monologue.

Mathias Meyer (40:43) Mm-hmm.

Sara Hicks (40:45) I've done it myself. I'm so sorry. And I've received it. You know, monologue, monologue, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30. The whole meaning is this person talking and you're just, that's squawking.

Mathias Meyer (40:56) walking. This this just one more minute.

Sara Hicks (40:58) you're the marmot And I will say like just bringing it back to us and personally,

Mathias and I are business partners where we built this company called the Intentional Organization. and we're coaches, we do this for a living. It's sometimes challenging for us to carve the space, to make the time, to do the reflection, to have the feedback conversation. I remember one time where we were preparing to do a feedback session with each other.

And we started it with this preamble and I'm gonna read it, because I always go

Mathias Meyer (41:29) Mm-hmm.

Sara Hicks (41:29) back to it, I just appreciate it so much, but before we each gave each other feedback, we said, as your business partner and within the limits of my perception, I offer you the following feedback. And I just wanted to share it on the podcast, because I think like, find an opener like that, like as your manager and within the limit, whatever, create that space.

Feedback is emotional. It is inherently emotional.

Mathias Meyer (41:59) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (41:59) so anything you can do to bring the conversation into a space where it's, I don't want to use the buzzword of psychological safety, but I will, it

Mathias Meyer (42:10) It's fair. mean...

Sara Hicks (42:11) requires psychological safety and feeling safe to hear, feeling safe to process and to respond.

You know, you ideally want the person to hear, I want to help you get better, other

Mathias Meyer (42:24) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (42:25) than you're not good enough. That's your main

Mathias Meyer (42:26) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (42:27) job. You want that person to hear, I want to help. I want to help you. I am here, you know, and these are the limits of my perception. Now your job as a manager, as leader is of course to validate and to get as much clear feedback as possible.

Mathias Meyer (42:43) sentence. It immediately frames the perspective that you're coming from. just state within the limits of my perception, it also limits the scope of your observation. Your business partner, manager,

Sara Hicks (42:55) Right.

Mathias Meyer (42:57) as your peer, teammate, whatever. It establishes that. And then it says, it helps

create a space for conversation by saying like within the limits of my perception. It's like, I think I'm seeing this, but you know, I could be wrong. Or there's probably more to this that I don't know. Let's talk about that if you're open to it. And then

Sara Hicks (43:09) Yep. Right.

Mathias Meyer (43:23) it offers feedback. It's not like this, you know, it's not just saying that my feedback is the law or you know, that it is the whole truth.

Sara Hicks (43:29) Okay.

Mathias Meyer (43:33) It's a thing that I'm giving to you and you get to decide what you do with it. I hope you're doing something with it to help us keep a trust and feedback loop. But also, again, like you might need more information, it might need a longer conversation to uncover what is really going on here. I'm a big fan of that sentence.

Sara Hicks (43:54) Yeah, yeah, it's a powerful one. It really helps to, in one sentence, position the conversation as supportive rather than as threatening. It just makes it clear. And again, not to keep repeating this, but the more you do this, the more...

it's going to feel like feedback is a gift rather than this threat or this challenge. the

Mathias Meyer (44:22) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (44:22) other thing is important with feedback to revisit it and to have expectations like, let's check back in on this in a week or let's check back in a couple

Mathias Meyer (44:33) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (44:34) weeks. Make some sort of agreement with each other around what the expectations are.

coming out of that conversation. like, hey, let's follow up on this specific situation. And

Mathias Meyer (44:47) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (44:48) there's a contract with each other. There's an accountability, right? Another chapter that we have in our book just around accountability.

Mathias Meyer (44:58) We've covered a lot of feedback round. Agreed. I think

One

of the the the topics I'd like to move to is how you can actually get good feedback. I mean,

Sara Hicks (45:08) Thank

Mathias Meyer (45:08) we've covered most of this conversation from the perspective of the person giving the feedback. Right. But

Sara Hicks (45:14) All right.

Mathias Meyer (45:16) we assuming that that person also knows how to give good feedback, which,

Sara Hicks (45:21) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (45:22) as we also established, isn't always the case and also hasn't been the case at all times for.

for us in our roles as founders and executives. thing that I've been thinking about and that I talk about with many of my clients is how can you actually get good feedback? a lot of them, and I've seen this in my team, ask people just put out generic requests, you know, like we said earlier, like, my door is always open or a feedback is always welcome

Sara Hicks (45:43) Right.

Mathias Meyer (45:49) or somebody on your team asks you, you're in whatever direction asks you, do you have any feedback for me? Right, it's all

Sara Hicks (45:56) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (45:58) very generic requests you don't have a trusted feedback cycle, or you know, not the developed feedback muscle can just leave you to scramble. And so, I...

Sara Hicks (46:11) Okay.

Mathias Meyer (46:11) very late in some of my, in one of my tenure as a CTO, I've, I've had this conversation with a friend and it was eye opening, about getting good feedback, you know, rather than putting out

very broad request that usually yields broad responses. You know, there's a whole, a whole dialogue we could have about start, stop, continue as a feedback framework and how it

tends to foster more of the generic feedback when people just don't know how to give useful feedback.

Sara Hicks (46:38) Right. Start communicating better.

Mathias Meyer (46:44) Yeah, that's really helpful. Continue

Sara Hicks (46:46) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (46:47) to be a great leader. It's also a favorite of mine. And it's

Sara Hicks (46:51) Right.

Mathias Meyer (46:51) like, okay, great. I know exactly

Sara Hicks (46:54) you

Mathias Meyer (46:55) what I need to do here. I've given talks on this.

several times already and it's always such an eye-opener which always is you know, some ways mind-blowing and surprising to me but also I think back to the times when I started using specific questions that I asked people about you know specific areas that I wanted to improve which you

Sara Hicks (47:15) Right. Thank

Mathias Meyer (47:17) know did require me to think about what is it that I actually want to improve what's an area where I know maybe from past feedback

Or, know, maybe I've uncovered this with my coach or something. What's an area that I need to improve? For example, communication.

Sara Hicks (47:29) Right.

Mathias Meyer (47:33) Or it is how I show up in meetings. How I behave in Give me a mirror to hold up to myself. How I behave in meetings.

Sara Hicks (47:40) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (47:41) And so I just started to come up with the help of this friend of ours that we both know, just to ask people specific questions. And for example, one of these questions

Sara Hicks (47:42) .

Mathias Meyer (47:55) is, what are three things I'm contributing to the organization? Second question, what are three things I'm doing that are hindering the organization or my team? How would you describe my...

for example, communication style. Or it could

Sara Hicks (48:11) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (48:12) be, how would you describe how I show up in meetings? And then another question, if you were to advise me, what could I do differently to address the things that are hindering the organization? Those are magical questions. We should dissect why.

Sara Hicks (48:17) Yep. Yep, very specific.

picking a specific area, whether it's showing up in meetings if you want to get good feedback, pick an area that you maybe want to improve on. And these questions, almost like going into that conversation with these questions as a starting point. So you're not starting with like, hey, give me some feedback. It's like, hey, I want to really improve with

speaking at company meetings.

I remember when I had moved up in my career and I was starting to present at the company all hands, you know, this monthly meeting, high pressure. And it

Mathias Meyer (49:09) Hmm.

Sara Hicks (49:10) was terrifying. And I remember starting to talk with my boss and I wish I had these questions, I, you know, what are, to really think about like, okay, how am I coming across or what are the things that are,

that are working, maybe not working. And then we have this joint understanding of like, hey, I want to improve. I want to improve how I present at company meetings. each time, get better. And

Mathias Meyer (49:38) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (49:39) check in with each other after each time. what three things work? Or what are the three things that really were impacted?

what I said here or how I, even my body language or how I was, prepared or all those things that's like having that specific goal and that specific thing that you're focused on is a great place to start that get you back to that like how can I get good feedback is well, ask for it. Don't

Mathias Meyer (50:06) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (50:07) wait for it.

and then ask for us around a specific area that you really want to improve on. Public speaking is a huge one. Showing up in meetings or how you are received in meetings is another great one.

Mathias Meyer (50:21) Yeah, what I also love about these questions, like besides they force you, as you said, to figure out a specific area, help guide people in their feedback, right? They set expectations on what you're after. Like if you

Sara Hicks (50:34) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (50:34) say three things that might seem a little bit harsh or a little bit maybe too specific, but also it might make it less daunting to folks than...

just having a big text box, right? Like that where you could write anything and you just, you maybe you get rewarded for coming up with as many things. Like just give me three things. Like that's, it's a doable list. The other thing that I love they help balance

Sara Hicks (50:55) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (51:04) out the power differential

like say the second question, what are three things I'm doing that are hindering the organization or my team? Right the word hindering explicitly gives the other person permission To talk openly about what am I actually doing that is holding this team back? I am from your perspective

Sara Hicks (51:23) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (51:24) I mean, of course, that requires that level of trust where when you get that feedback, you actually do something about it and or you don't yell at the other person or are upset that you're getting this feedback. We assume that this is you're actually interested in this.

Sara Hicks (51:36) Right.

Mathias Meyer (51:38) yeah, they guide the feedback very nicely from my perspective and they put more on they put more of the onus on the person seeking feedback in preparation.

Sara Hicks (51:47) Right.

Mathias Meyer (51:48) and thinking about them, but in return, ideally, you actually get useful feedback, right, which might not be the case with whatever other framework you're using.

Sara Hicks (51:55) Right. Right.

the key here is want both people to be able to be prepared. So if you're going into this conversation, you know you're gonna ask for specific questions or you're gonna wanna cover a specific topic, share that with the person in advance. Get that person a little bit

Mathias Meyer (52:13) Yup.

Sara Hicks (52:13) of time to think and prepare. Again, knowing that you're gonna have a monthly feedback conversation, go into it like, hey, I really wanna.

focus on this area and hear some questions. so then that person has time to really give thoughtful responses around these areas. Yeah, I'm a big fan. And hindering, you're right. That's a key word there.

Mathias Meyer (52:35) an offsite, the team that I mentioned previously, they were really struggling with the word hindering. they did have a good point. Like I gave them a form where, know, that effectively asked them to talk about somebody else and how they're hindering the organization. It's not exactly the same as giving someone directly permission.

Sara Hicks (52:57) Right

Mathias Meyer (52:58) to tell you to your face, think companies struggle with this team struggle with this when they have a nice culture, right? Where where it's the the focus is on positivity and not saying anything that could demotivate people, which the assumption

Sara Hicks (53:14) Right.

Mathias Meyer (53:15) always is that, you know, if it's tough feedback, if it is quote unquote, negative feedback,

that that's what that will achieve, right? That will be the inevitable outcome. If you tell somebody something negative, either have to wrap it in two positives as the poop sandwich, or you can't do that too much. have to keep focusing on the

positive sides to, well, again, not demotivate people, right? But then

Sara Hicks (53:41) Right.

Mathias Meyer (53:43) blind spots will never be addressed. But that being said,

Sara Hicks (53:45) Right.

Mathias Meyer (53:46) as a German, we are more known as we've established, not just for brevity, but also for focusing on mostly the stuff that we don't like. And I know I don't speak for all Germans here. culturally speaking,

Sara Hicks (53:59) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (54:01) we probably have a more forthcoming way of giving feedback, giving, not offering, than, you know,

say a Californian culture or maybe even a British culture.

Sara Hicks (54:15) 'Tis true.

Mathias Meyer (54:16) But also that said, like I've come around over the years appreciation or to highlighting what somebody contributes, what somebody's doing well to help them understand what they should keep doing. Like, right? What is the continue part in the start stop continue?

is the stuff that they are already contributing that they need to do more of that actually brings value to the team, the culture, work output, etc. Right.

Sara Hicks (54:45) Right.

Mathias Meyer (54:45) And so I mean, I've made an effort, even over the early years of us working together when it was, you know, me as a German and a mostly US team to always when I give feedback to look for something is a positive, right, that I like

Sara Hicks (55:00) Right.

Mathias Meyer (55:00) something I like.

And that's

Sara Hicks (55:02) Yep.

Mathias Meyer (55:02) not just the poop sandwich, but also setting this up on a foot even just it was a mindset shift for me I think that was maybe the more important thing here where I don't only dump a list of stuff that I don't like it's just here's some appreciation that I also did for myself, but also it's also for your benefit

Sara Hicks (55:20) Yeah. I mean, it's important, right?

Like you want to obviously, you know, the gaps and you want to share kind of things that are hindering but there's also got to be, you know, some reinforcing positive behavior. And again, we're not talking about the poop sandwich here, but we're just talking about like, This was an area I noticed that it improved or this, you know, reinforced.

this specific thing give a little bit of glimmer of, a little more of this is what we're expecting to see or what I'm expecting to see, something like that.

Mathias Meyer (55:55) Yeah.

I mean, that's where, you know, those teams want to focus on, you know, appreciation. They're somewhat right in that this can be a great boost, right? And it just even just like how saying thank you to somebody for something they did and truly meaning it.

Sara Hicks (56:10) Right. Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (56:14) Or, you know, telling someone that you like what they did and why.

That can just be a great confidence booster

Sara Hicks (56:22) Yeah,

yeah, that you appreciate something, you appreciate something they did, you're grateful for something they did. Making that, that's just as important as part of the feedback process is making sure there's regular reinforcement of appreciation or even gratitude for something positive that was done.

Mathias Meyer (56:40) Yeah,

If you need to give tough feedback, give tough feedback. But ideally, have a trusted feedback loop where

it doesn't feel like it's too negative or too demotivating. It's just the continuation

Sara Hicks (56:52) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (56:52) of something that's already happening. And maybe it's just

Sara Hicks (56:54) Right, right.

Mathias Meyer (56:55) not as appreciative as it usually is. Well, on that note, more on feedback in our book, a lot more. As Sara said, it's one of her favorite chapters. It's also one of my favorite chapters.

We

made a conscious choice to include it in our book as opposed to many of the other business books that don't talk about it too much. But before we close,

Sara Hicks (57:20) Ooh, okay.

Mathias Meyer (57:21) before we close, let's do something lighthearted. Sara, what have you been reading lately?

Sara Hicks (57:30) Okay,

I just finished Liz Gilbert's, Elizabeth Gilbert's new book. It's called All the Way to the River.

Mathias Meyer (57:39) Mm-hmm.

Sara Hicks (57:40) It's a memoir. It's I think her third memoir. A lot of people know Elizabeth Gilbert from her very successful first, I think, first memoir, not her first book called Eat, Pray, Love, which was turned

Mathias Meyer (57:53) Mm-hmm.

Sara Hicks (57:54) into the movie with Julia Roberts. But this is a very different story. You know, I really appreciated her vulnerability. yeah.

I'm actually going to go see her speak on her book tour next

Mathias Meyer (58:09) very cool.

Sara Hicks (58:11) week. And having written a book, have a deep, deep, deep respect and appreciation for writers and for people like Liz Gilbert, who's so vulnerable. It's a master class in

Mathias Meyer (58:24) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (58:25) vulnerability and to put

herself and share what she's able to share and to be that raw. I mean it's, I read a review of it, know, at times it's excruciating. It's excruciating to read and she said it was excruciating to live too, you know. Anyway, I finished that.

Mathias Meyer (58:50) I bet, yes.

Sara Hicks (58:51) I don't know what's next. I'll probably go to something, you know, I like to switch it up, know, memoir. I'll probably go back to some.

Maybe it may be some sort of leadership book, but how

Mathias Meyer (59:02) Yeah.

Sara Hicks (59:02) about you? What are you reading or what have you recently read?

Mathias Meyer (59:06) I made a conscious choice this summer to read fiction books again. Like I've been

Sara Hicks (59:10) nights.

Mathias Meyer (59:11) reading so many non-fiction books over the years. there's only so much you can digest in these books. And I, this summer I started reading, well, I started reading science fiction books.

and started or already finished reading the Three Body Problem trilogy, which

Sara Hicks (59:29) Nice.

Mathias Meyer (59:29) is probably more than 2000 pages in total. But it is, and it's just, you know, pun for everybody knowing the book. It's a stellar series. It's just there's so many tiebacks to actual real, very cutting edge physics.

which I find fascinating, but it's just, is incredible. I've probably plowed through all of these books in maybe three, four weeks. was a

Sara Hicks (59:59) Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (1:00:01) fast read.

Sara Hicks (1:00:02) That's a good summer break. Yeah.

Mathias Meyer (1:00:04) Anything you've been cooking?

that has stood out or has just been enjoyable to cook and also to eat.

Sara Hicks (1:00:14) I did last week make, I made, um, what are they called? Lentil smashed tacos. So that inside of the taco is lentils simmered with tomatoes and onion and all sorts of spices. I will have to say they were... They were okay. But...

Truth be told, I think it really is about the toppings and so, you know, the fresh guacamole, the fresh pico, you just can't go wrong.

But other than that, I'm drawing a blank.

Mathias Meyer (1:00:47) It's okay. I mean one at a time one at a time I

Sara Hicks (1:00:50) Thank

Mathias Meyer (1:00:51) have a very specific a we had tacos last Friday also not with this recipe, but I do love tacos

And the other day of the weekend I made a very German meal Which is eggs and mustard sauce

Sara Hicks (1:01:07) Well...

Mathias Meyer (1:01:07) to its

hard boiled eggs with a mustardy, very mustardy bechamel sauce. And usually very classic in Germany is either potato mash or just boiled potatoes. It's not a very colorful meal but it is delicious. It's a...

Sara Hicks (1:01:27) mean, it sounds really good. like all those things together is like a potato salad, like with egg and. Yeah,

Mathias Meyer (1:01:32) It is a particular, yeah,

Sara Hicks (1:01:34) That sounds really good. mean, yeah, different. It sounds very German. Very German.

Mathias Meyer (1:01:37) It's delightful. I mean,

Mustardy eggs is definitely, even for many folks that we know, is a childhood memory kind of thing.

And if it's not clear, dear listener, from this conversation, cooking is and has been a big part.

even of our partnership and friendship and is generally something we both enjoy doing and we spend a lot of time in the kitchen.

Well, with that, thank you for listening to the Intentional Organization Podcast. We'll include all the source material and stuff in the show notes, and we will catch you next time.

Sara Hicks (1:02:18) Thank you, thank you.